tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post1280989436257312422..comments2024-01-31T03:00:37.150-05:00Comments on View-from-Wilmington: Devilish Discords, A Reply to Robert ZimmermanChris Halkideshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-66844673845155949862009-05-24T23:09:21.574-04:002009-05-24T23:09:21.574-04:00To the 5:44 PM on 23 May,
Yes "little d***ed whit...To the 5:44 PM on 23 May,<br /><br />Yes "little d***ed white boy" would constitute a racial slur in my book because it plays to racial stereotypes. <br /><br />With respect to the comment about the accuser's maintaining that a sexual assault took place, I can say that there are no independent facts to corroborate it. Moreover, if a sexual assault took place, it could not possibly have been a member of the lacrosse team.<br /><br />ChrisChris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-62485399293514468292009-05-24T23:03:12.636-04:002009-05-24T23:03:12.636-04:00To the 6:54 PM on 22 May,
Larisha Stone did not g...To the 6:54 PM on 22 May,<br /><br />Larisha Stone did not give any details of the incident at alpha pi alpha. Without facts, it is impossible to make a judgement in this matter. I have confidence in the findings of the Coleman committee.<br /><br />ChrisChris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-40809596036813704892009-05-24T13:26:13.628-04:002009-05-24T13:26:13.628-04:00Rougemount,
Thank you. I just read Zimmerman's r...Rougemount,<br /><br />Thank you. I just read Zimmerman's reply to KC's comment at the end of the Sense and Nonsense post. He said, "And naturally I myself am implicated by my rhetorical question about [the lack of] 'voices of constructive, civilized critique.'" I commend Zimmerman for making this honest acknowledgment (I have made one or two of my own elsewhere). I am beginning to agree with you that Zimmerman and I have some common ground.<br /><br />ChrisChris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-10052807700278085842009-05-24T11:58:44.925-04:002009-05-24T11:58:44.925-04:00Thanks, Chris, I am getting close to understanding...Thanks, Chris, I am getting close to understanding your post. You said: "His silence is odd, given his willingness to take Baldwin to task for defending, perhaps a little intemperately, Pressler and the students." I don't agree with that statement. From what I have read, he seems to admire Baldwin for his willingness to defend, he is taking him to task for the way he went about it. You seem to be saying that Zimmerman is taking the easy way out by not offering an example of an editorial that would have been more constructive and that is a legitimate though perhaps minor criticism as I have seen hardly anything constructive come out from anybody in the duke faculty. However, it is also my opinion that Zimmerman at least attempts fairness at what he does write and the fact that he is a faculty member at Duke that does take some of the other faculty to task for their actions, is something to be commended as well. I understand he also defends Duke faculty from what he views as unfair attacks and I also admire that in him. His focus on the case is a narrow one dealing primarily with KC Johnson's attacks on his colleagues, and other blogs and coverage that he feels are unfair. In his own way, I believe he is trying to be both constructive and fair by encouraging civil dialog in this tightly focussed area. I know he has read your post and he told me he intends to respond. I still believe you both have a lot more common ground than less and I look forward to reading your dialog.<br /><br />RougemontAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-46492476946225109992009-05-24T10:46:19.144-04:002009-05-24T10:46:19.144-04:00To the 10:04,
The Wikipedia article (and Duke Dad...To the 10:04,<br /><br />The Wikipedia article (and Duke Dad's comment) on tarring and feathering indicate that this is a very old practice. It probably has been applied against black people in the United States, but that does not give it any particular racial significance than lynching a black man gives hanging special racial significance (obviously I am not condoning any of these practices). I cannot be certain that Wiegman knew her assertions were false, but she was, at least, reckless in making them.<br /><br />That Zimmerman fails to chastise her for doing so is one of several errors of omission he has made. Another is to write that it was time for "faculty members to speak publicly and critically about the treatment of the lacrosse players on campus and by Nifong" and then not say himself the things to which he objected. I provided a sample that came from campus, and I would direct people to "Until Proven Innocent" for the misbehaviors of the Durham Police Dept., as well as Nifong. Third, Zimmerman disapprovingly describes Baldwin's call for some to be removed from the academy as a "very concrete suggestion." Where was ZImmerman when Houston Baker called for Mike Pressler's removal as head coach of the lacrosse team before any investigation? His silence is odd, given his willingness to take Baldwin to task for defending, perhaps a little intemperately, Pressler and the students.<br /><br />ChrisChris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-37774867321224533162009-05-24T10:04:38.142-04:002009-05-24T10:04:38.142-04:00Chris,
Baldwin said: "In particular, in the next-...Chris,<br />Baldwin said: "In particular, in the next-to-last paragraph of the editorial I used some terms that I have now learned have racial connotations for some"<br /><br />I don't know about you but it would appear to me that Baldwin understood that she took his editorial in a way that had racial connotations. The fact that she was wrong about that and unprofessional in her response does not mean that she is lying about the way she perceived his editorial. If I am reading this correctly it appears you are saying she knew it had no racial connotations (vs should have known) and deliberately played the race card here. Frankly, both of them were pretty dumb about the whole situation, in my opinion. You are making what is in my opinion a leap of faith in deciding her response to Baldwin was disingenuous in order to prove your point about Zimmerman.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-10806682327232546712009-05-23T17:44:02.998-04:002009-05-23T17:44:02.998-04:00Halides,
I am staying on topic by stating why the...Halides,<br /><br />I am staying on topic by stating why the group of 88 was concerned about the lacrosse team's racist behavior. I am showing a pattern of the team's behavior.<br /><br /><br />"Your comment about Devon Sherwood is disingenuous. My point is that he said that he had forty-six brothers on the lacrosse team and his statements contradict a pattern of racism on the lacrosse team. His actions on the night of the party are not the point, and you know it".<br /><br /><br /><br />No it's not! You're basing your comment on what one team player "thinks". But you ignore what Larisha Stone stated at the NCCU Forum, about previous offenses of racism directed at a fraternity where the lacrosse team intruded on a cook-out & racial slurs were hurled. Those racial remarks were made, Halides. That happened!<br /><br />It clearly shows a pattern.<br /><br /><br />"You and I both know that no racially-tinted remarks were said until it was clear that the dancers had cut their performance short and Kim's remark had started the slide into vulgar epithets".<br /><br /><br />Kim may have used vulgar epithets but there was nothing racist about it. Race was injected when the player yelled.... <B>Thank your Grandpa for my nice cotton shirt.</B> <br /><br /><br />What was racist about Kim using the words little d^^ked white boy?<br /><br />Is the word white a racial slur?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-17222881382094167572009-05-23T16:40:27.901-04:002009-05-23T16:40:27.901-04:00To all,
Anonymous left a comment earlier that I f...To all,<br /><br />Anonymous left a comment earlier that I failed to clear. I would not clear the same comment in this thread, but I believe that this comment can be grandfathered in on the basis of the fact that it preceded my just-published guidance. However, I would urge everyone to stay on topic. The comment is found below.<br /><br />Chris<br /><br />"So, lest anyone question the great wisdom of the speakers, remember that in the end not one thing -- nothing -- that was said that day stood the test of time".<br /><br /><br />I beg to differ!<br /><br />http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3800813/<br /><br />Duke accuser still claims sexual assault"Ýes, I am still claiming that a sexual assault happened,"Chris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-75358956760367795992009-05-23T16:34:53.459-04:002009-05-23T16:34:53.459-04:00To all,
I would urge you to focus your comments o...To all,<br /><br />I would urge you to focus your comments on the Group of 88, the Group of 89, and their allies, which is one of the subjects of the original post. Allegations that the team is racist are tangential, and discussions of the guilt or innocence of the three indicted players even more so.<br /><br />ChrisChris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-66228269711648237932009-05-23T16:32:50.140-04:002009-05-23T16:32:50.140-04:00To the 8:40 PM,
Your comment about Devon Sherwood...To the 8:40 PM,<br /><br />Your comment about Devon Sherwood is disingenuous. My point is that he said that he had forty-six brothers on the lacrosse team and his statements contradict a pattern of racism on the lacrosse team. His actions on the night of the party are not the point, and you know it.<br /><br />Likewise, your comment about racial remarks being "hurled" at the dancers is equally disingenuous. You and I both know that no racially-tinted remarks were said until it was clear that the dancers had cut their performance short and Kim's remark had started the slide into vulgar epithets.<br /><br />The Coleman report stated that the team was respectful of support staff (some of whom were presumably black), and it was generally favorable toward the team.<br /><br />ChrisChris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-2169356690845874692009-05-23T12:36:32.379-04:002009-05-23T12:36:32.379-04:00Chris, Chris. Don't you know that those speakers ...Chris, Chris. Don't you know that those speakers at the NCCU forum spoke the truth and nothing but the truth? Don't you remember that Nifong quoted one student who declared: "They left nothing behind," and he got lots of applause.<br /><br />Yeah, they just KNEW there had been a rape and nothing, I mean nothing, was going to deter them. After it became obvious that Crystal was lying, then it was solidarity time.<br /><br />Lest anyone doubt the mentality that existed then, don't forget the infamous "Our Hearts World" website that Cash Michaels and the NAACP put up. Yep, the defense attorneys were called tools of the devil and anyone who doubted Crystal was an evil racist.<br /><br />So, lest anyone question the great wisdom of the speakers, remember that in the end not one thing -- nothing -- that was said that day stood the test of time.William L. Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802990642236807359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-49077602014383121422009-05-22T20:40:43.545-04:002009-05-22T20:40:43.545-04:00"There are two very separate issues in your commen..."There are two very separate issues in your comment. One is whether or not the lacrosse team was generally behaving in a racist manner".<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />1.We do know there were racial slurs hurled at the dancers on the night of the party.<br /><br />2. We do know from listening to Larisha Stone at the NCCU Forum, the team engaged in racist behavior at the fraternity cook-out.<br /><br /><br />Since there were 2 different incidents of the team hurling racial slurs; There seems to be a pattern of the team's racist behavior, right? Did Coleman miss that?<br /><br /><br />"That is refuted by the Coleman report, and also by the comments of <B>Devon Sherwood</B>, the sole black player on the team".<br /><br /><br />No, that dog won't hunt!<br /><br /><br />http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/Story?id=2617301&page=1<br /><br /><br />Devon Sherwood <B>wasn't present</B> to hear the racial slurs on the night of the party because he left after the dance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-7487261941399192112009-05-22T20:04:00.994-04:002009-05-22T20:04:00.994-04:00To the 6:54 PM,
There are two very separate issues...To the 6:54 PM,<br />There are two very separate issues in your comment. One is whether or not the lacrosse team was generally behaving in a racist manner. That is refuted by the Coleman report, and also by the comments of Devon Sherwood, the sole black player on the team. The other is how seriously should one take the Group of 88 and their allies bringing up the issue of racism. Let me reiterate one of the reasons I gave in my post. Robyn Wiegman made a false charge of racism against Steven Baldwin, most probably knowing it was false. One would not recklessly toss around a charge of this magnitude if one took racism as seriously as these faculty claim to.Chris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-32564555640614153942009-05-22T18:54:27.054-04:002009-05-22T18:54:27.054-04:00Halides,
"When I first encountered this case...Halides,<br /><br />"When I first encountered this case, I believed that the members of the Group of 88 were sincere in their concern about racism at Duke"<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Why wouldn't the Group of 88 be sincere? According to students at the NCCU forum racism was an on-going problem at Duke.<br /><br />http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/1091582/<br /><br />According to student " Larisha Stone", there were previous offenses of racism directed at a fraternity where the lacrosse team intruded on a cook-out & racial slurs were hurled. Larisha Stone asked what was Duke going to do about holding the team accountable.<br /><br /><br />If there was an atmosphere of racial hate at Duke, then why wouldn't the Group of 88 be concerned, Halides?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-37322677863905778822009-05-22T09:09:23.966-04:002009-05-22T09:09:23.966-04:00To all,
I edited some words and moved around some...To all,<br /><br />I edited some words and moved around some sentences last night. I also added a concluding paragraph. I hope that these changes improve the clarity of the essay.<br /><br />ChrisChris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-37883741450796663002009-05-15T15:05:00.000-04:002009-05-15T15:05:00.000-04:00Chris @ 9:01am:
The political columnist David Brod...Chris @ 9:01am:<br /><BR><I>The political columnist David Broder often tries to find wrong on both sides; in doing so he sometimes compares wrongs of unequal size.</I><BR>Otherwise know as 'moral equivalence'. It's always a bad argument.Just this side of Austin Countynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-25130798922342267502009-05-15T09:01:00.000-04:002009-05-15T09:01:00.000-04:00To the 8:18
I don't believe Baldwin meant literal...To the 8:18<br /><br />I don't believe Baldwin meant literal removal, but that is just my interpretation. I do wish he had chosen less inflammatory words to express himself, but I think speaking out was courageous, especially in retrospect.<br /><br />The political columnist David Broder often tries to find wrong on both sides; in doing so he sometimes compares wrongs of unequal size. I think that is what Zimmerman is doing here.<br /><br />ChrisChris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-13784199800618673282009-05-15T08:18:00.000-04:002009-05-15T08:18:00.000-04:00I appreciate you pointing out my misunderstanding ...I appreciate you pointing out my misunderstanding of your post (8:18). If I understand this correctly your are defending Baldwin's statement and do not agree with Zimmerman's interpretation of it. He did not mean that they should be removed from the academy literally and the tarred and feathered reference was a harmless literary reference. On Weigmann's statement I was perhaps confused by your earlier comment that it was "attempt to find some wrong on both sides". He is really defending her statement because he called it short, well-modulated and felt there was too much emphasis on her interpretation of the tarred and feathered comment.<br /> My own opinion is that there is wrong on both sides. After all, that was my personal take on it the first time after all. Neither acted very professionally, in my opinion. If one were to look for any good in the two statements from Baldwin and Wiegmann, I guess Baldwin should be commended for speaking out in the first place, as many chose to remain silent. And Wiegmann did respond with a bit more restraint than Baldwin.<br /> I do like your title (Devilish Discords), very appropriate and quite clever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-49469305595240788542009-05-14T20:47:00.000-04:002009-05-14T20:47:00.000-04:00Cross-posted inside Wonderland:
Let it be noted t...Cross-posted inside <I>Wonderland</I>:<br /><br />Let it be noted that the blog I linked above has been comprehensively edited to remove all evidence provided against the Gang of 88 mascot Timothy Tyson.<br /><br />A vivid example of a public school in the United States indoctrinating students without any critical analysis of subject matter which is enthusiastically offered as the last word.Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-16522299915459197242009-05-14T19:52:00.000-04:002009-05-14T19:52:00.000-04:00Live,
I am only quoting what Inmyhumbleopinion st...Live,<br /><br />I am only quoting what Inmyhumbleopinion stated on the Duke Lacrosse Discussion board. I am very familiar with the Talk Left Forum as well. <br /><br />I provided a link to back up my point that KC Johnson didn't do his research when it came to Inmyhumbleopinion because she said so.<br /><br /><br />There's that rushing to judgement again, you're going to hurt yourself in trying to figure out who I am. But don't let me stop you from having fun. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-64269635357759958692009-05-14T19:48:00.000-04:002009-05-14T19:48:00.000-04:00To all,
I would urge everyone to resist the tempt...To all,<br /><br />I would urge everyone to resist the temptation to make personal attacks. I would also like for the discussion to move back to the original subject of the post, which is the conflict between Professors Baldwin and Wiegman, and Professor Zimmerman's response. Issues related to the faculty response to the incident and subsequent indictments are certainly fair game also.Chris Halkideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933976220776524122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-86186412503849109152009-05-14T19:37:00.000-04:002009-05-14T19:37:00.000-04:00Live from Fayette County said...
Give it up, just...Live from Fayette County said...<br /><br /><I>Give it up, justice. KC never mentioned imho by nick, so you really don't know who he was talking about</I>Fayette County,<br /><br />According to LieStoppers poster, wumhenry, KC Johnson confirmed to him in an email that he <I>was</I> referring to inmyhumbleopion on page 270 of UPI.<br /><br />http://hackedbannedandlockeddown.yuku.com/reply/5483/t/The-Tony-Soprano-school-of-investigative-reporting.html#reply-5483inmyhumbleopinionhttp://hackedbannedandlockeddown.yuku.com/directorynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-7641285319683858172009-05-14T19:34:00.000-04:002009-05-14T19:34:00.000-04:00TO (6:08 PM)--
I'm sure we will all rest easy for...TO (6:08 PM)--<br /><br />I'm sure we will all rest easy for the clarification.<br /><br />LOL!<br /><br />You guys who flit and flitter with pseudonymous and anonymous zest must understand that no one would give a whit if you could simply offer some morsels of originality.<br /><br />All of you live off the images of the Diva, of KC, of the innocent lacrosse players, and I'm sure that Chris will have a "blog bust" dedicated to him very soon.<br /><br />Just get a life and use your own words and images when you wish to contribute to the conversation and no one will be saying a thing.<br /><br />Thanks in advance!Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-78776946631824137362009-05-14T19:12:00.000-04:002009-05-14T19:12:00.000-04:00Anon @ 4:15pm:
I don't think so! KC Johnson didn'...Anon @ 4:15pm:<br /><br /><I>I don't think so! KC Johnson didn't do his research when he stated in UPI that a "Nifong volunteer", Inmyhumbleopinon, lived in Trinity Park.</I>Give it up, justice. KC never mentioned imho by nick, so you really don't know who he was talking about.Live from Fayette Countynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8731849270338485723.post-25246452546683172542009-05-14T18:08:00.000-04:002009-05-14T18:08:00.000-04:00Debrah,
Your first mistake was rushing to judgeme...Debrah,<br /><br />Your first mistake was rushing to judgement in assuming my identity. <B>I am not inmyhumbleopinion</B>. I gave the link because I read it on "Duke Lacrosse Case Discussion Board". It's a well documented board.<br /><br /><br />Watch yourself from being so presumptuous!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com