Tuesday, July 20, 2010

To those who believe that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are guilty, I issue a challenge.

Part 20 in the Knox/Sollecito case

Francesco Maresco, lawyer for the Kercher family, said after the verdict last December, “We are teaching the whole world and the United States how to collect, analyse and evaluate scientific technical aspects of the case.”

I have previously discussed how the electronic data files are used by independent experts in criminal cases. Those arguments are especially compelling in the murder of Meredith Kercher, in which the amount of DNA in two of the most important pieces of DNA evidence fall near or into the low copy number (LCN) range. The profile from the bra clasp is also a mixture, and it is well known that the analysis of mixtures introduces subjectivity into the analysis. I have also previously given my reasons for believing that these critical files were never released to the defense teams. Since that time some additional information has become available that puts this question to rest.

Raffaele Sollecito’s appeal documents indicate that his defense expert Dr. Pascali requested the raw data in 2008 (presumably the electronic data files). This request was prior to the preliminary hearing, and the lawyers supported their request with a reference to article 415. They also requested the log files. The judge granted the defense teams the right to forensic information in the summer of 2009 that they had been denied until that time. However, the prosecutions did not fully comply with this order, according to a source close to the defense, and this was one of the things that precipitated the defense teams’ asking for a mistrial in September of 2009.


An open letter coauthored by Dr. Elizabeth Johnson and Professor Gregory Hampikian noted that the prosecution failed to release the electronic data files (.fsa files) to the defense. Since the time of the letter’s release on 11/19/09, some have assumed that these two DNA forensic scientists were unrelated to the case and therefore had no standing to ask for these files. This argument is false. An article written by Fiona Ness on 25 April 2010 indicates that Professor Hampikian is a consultant for Amanda Knox’s defense team. As such, he has every reason to request the operating procedures of the lab, as well as the electronic data files that produce the electropherograms.

“The importance of DNA evidence in a conviction is highlighted in one of Hampikian’s cases - that of US student Amanda Knox. Knox was convicted of the murder of British student Meredith Kercher after a high-profile trial in Italy in 2009. Knox’s conviction was partly based on a sample of her DNA discovered on a knife found in the house. However, Hampikian says he is appalled by the standard of DNA evidence used by the Italian courts to convict Knox in the case. ‘The amount of DNA present is far below the normal cut-off for many labs that I know of. A one off spurious piece of DNA evidence shouldn’t be treated as a gold standard profile from a high-profile source. The issue of this low-template DNA sample is really troubling me.’ Trying to obtain the evidence to have it retested, however, is proving difficult. ‘The discovery rules in Italy are different to what I’m used to. It’s fairly routine in the US that I send a request and get what I want. But in the Knox case I haven’t been able to get a copy of the standard operating procedures of the lab and without that, it’s hard to see if they even followed their own guidelines.’ Evidence, Hampikian says, is a matter of science, to be reviewed, not protected.” (emphasis added) An article in the Irish Times confirms that a professional relationship exists between Professor Hampikian and the Knox family.

The words of an anonymous forensic DNA expert unconnected with the murder of Meredith Kercher are apropos here. This individual said with reference to a different case, “Honest differences of opinion by qualified experts should be welcomed by the Court. This can only be accomplished if the independent expert is provided full and complete discovery by the government.” Keith Inman and Norah Rudin gave ten ways to improve forensic science. Number five was “Provide transparency. Secrecy and gamesmanship are inappropriate to the work of the forensic scientist. All laboratory notes, data, results, procedures, logs, and records should be open to controlled
and appropriate scrutiny.”

To those who believe Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito are guilty, I respectfully issue a challenge: Join me in calling for the release of all of the forensic information that the defense has been denied until now. Some among you have argued that the Italian authorities should not release any more information than that demanded by Italian law. However, it is conceivable that Italian law is not yet settled on the question of whether or not to release the electronic data files. If it is not, why should the precedent be against full disclosure rather than in support of full disclosure? If the case against the defendants is as strong as you say it is, you have nothing to fear. On the contrary, your certainty would be stronger if the release and examination of these files produced nothing.

To the Italian authorities I respectfully issue a related challenge: Make good on Mr. Maresca’s claim. Show the world that forensic evidence is to be shared with the defense. At that point the analysis will be complete. Provide the electronic data files (.fsa files), and the instrument log files, and include the contamination log files if they exist. Then and only then will you indeed be showing the world the right way to treat forensic evidence.

70 comments:

Anonymous said...

u are just full of shit like amanda and Raffael's alibis and lies. i have no respect for folks who advocate for butcher killers like these 2

halides1 said...

No profanity, please. If you would not say it in front of your mother, don't say it here.

Anonymous said...

First of all u are falsifying the facts just like that cruel sociopath amanda have been doing from the start, just like her parents have benn in the US media. It is well known fact that when Forensic scientist Stefanino invited the killer's defense team to attend her Knife DNA testing in the lab in Rome along with the prosecution, THEN AMANDA AND RAFFAEL'S LAWEYRS DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP FOR IT.This is well known incident. they were so confident that nothing will show up in the DNA testing of the knife that they didn't even bother to drive up to Rome. Thats why in the trial when thery asked for an independent review of the knife and bra DNA, the judge rejected it and said that they had been given enough notice in advance to come to this DNA analysis by Stefanino in her lab in Rome. But they refused to attend it. ThIS OBVIOUSLY WAS ONE OF THEIR TACTICS TO SHOW THE WOLRD THE DOUBTS IN THE DNA ANALYSIS BY STEFANINO BY BEING ABSENT. BECAUSE THEY KNEW THAT AMANDA HAD LIED SO MUCH FROM THE VERY BEGININING THAT THE COUT WILL CONVICT HER ON UTTER AND PATHOLOGIC LIES. If u remember her own lawyer Ghirga said inthe begining of the ase when she was arrested, "i dont know which version of her story to believe because there are so many of them outthere"Pal even Solecitto's lawyers do admit that meredith's DNA was present on the knife tip, they dont deny it. Its just that Solecitto's explained it by his yet another pathologic lies,that he cut Meredith's finger by accident in his apt while cooking fish! Meanwhile she never went to his apt in the first place! Mr, u can;t explain the ever ending lies of these 2 folks, u are just hair splitting forensic evidence , which is controversial in every case. But its multifactorial, circumstantial, forensic, alibis and behavior of the subject all taken in totality that prove the guilt or innocence. T o begin with , the police interrogation ,which really is like the litmus paper test for the credibilty and psyche of the suspect showed that both were lying. both were contradicting each other and both are smart, shrewd bastards wh tried to dodge the interrogation as much as they could. She even ended up in accusing an innocent man! But in doing this dodging they both got and tangled in their own lies and fell in their own ditch.Have u ever thought that why did she have to work so hard in changing her alibis and versions , when she was truly innocent? She , infact purposely and knowingly accused an innocent black man, who lost his business totally because of her. If a person is innocent, then they may just say to the police, well this acquaintee of Meredith shuld be questioned too since he used to like her, But, no! she didn't just vaguely mentined his name, but said that HE KILLED MEREDITH!Now this is a very strong statement and cannot be made in error or without any purpose and motive. Sure forensics are alwaus controversial like n Scott peterson or OJ simpson case, BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF CRUDE CUES AND FACTS HERE THAT ONE CANNOT SHAKE AWAY WITHOUT HAVING KNOX AND RAFFAEL ASSOCTIAED OR ACCOMPLICE IN MEREDITH'S MURDER.

Anonymous said...

fIRST OF ALL MY MOTHER IS NOT ALIVE, SO DONT MENTION MY MOTHER IN THIS ,U ARE NOTHING BUT A DESPICABLE HUMAN BEIN G WHO ADVOCATES NOT FOR THE VICTIM BUT FOR AN CONVICTED, CRUEL, BUTCHER MUREDERER. AND U ARE SHOWING UR DESPICABLE AND SCUMMIEST ATTITUDE BY ALLUDING TO AND MENTIONING MY DECEASED MOTHER! sHAME UPON U IF U ARE TRULY THE REAL SON A MOTHER

Anonymous said...

Chris,
Thanks for your dedication to this case. It really makes me feel better that people like you are working so hard to right this wrong.
TM

Humanity Blues said...

Posting to get follow up emails.

I'm really tired of hearing the argument that because the attorneys weren't there for the testing, then they can't release the FSA files for scrutinizing. It's a very bad argument, and that's really all there is to say. If someone can't see how obviously bad that argument is, then what can you do?

Anonymous said...

really humanity blue who are u some attornet practicing in italy? its not a bad arguement at all, i am sure in the United states there are same laws the court has allowing eual and same rights to both prosecution and defense. why dont u just admit it that some 20 more judges saw tis case over 2 yrs and proved her guilty? Her endless lies and accusation of an innocent man is just the gate way to her path of conviction. Raffael 's father who is politicaly connected got the best lawyer in italy, but still Raff couldn't be saved. And why not, there such crude facts smacking on their face when one looks at this case that u cannot shy away from the truth that: amanda and raafael murdered rather butchederd meredith

Humanity Blues said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Humanity Blues said...

JULY 21, 2010 1:08 AM

First, all you are doing is proving my point. If the evidence is so overwhelming and obvious, then releasing the files for the DNA should be no problem. The fact that the lawyers weren't there for the testing is irrelevant. They should be happy, if not proud, to do it. Unless you have something to hide, what on earth is the problem?

Second, you have a really sketchy view of American jurisprudence if you think that not showing up for testing would exonerate the prosecution from having to hand over every file relating to the DNA during the process of discovery in the US.

RoseMontague said...

Nice article Chris. I have seen reports that this particular forensic Lab has never reported a single incident of contamination. WOW.

From the Massei report (Google translation) several quotes from thetestimony of Stephanoni:

With regard to contamination in the laboratory indicated that it was not aware of data that speak of such contamination and stressed that when applied all the recommended procedures for good laboratory practice was to exclude the occurrence of such contamination.

Dr Stefanoni answer specific questions about stated that the job of geneticist biologist from about seven weapons and have always used the same methods and had never heard that they had experienced problems of contamination of exhibits.

halides1 said...

Anonymous,

Your shouting and general rudeness are not in keeping with the friendly atmosphere of this group. Please tone it down at once.

The notion that the defense’s presence or absence at the testing is related to discovery is one of the false arguments that keeps cropping up, despite our best efforts to lay it to rest. First, it is inapplicable to people like Dr. Taglibracci or Dr. Hampikian, who joined the defense team after the testing was done. They cannot go back in time. Second, being at the testing may prevent outright fraud from occurring during those moments, but that is about it. I have given examples of how the electronic data files are used by experts to correct errors or uncover fraud. I have provided a liberal number of quotes from forensic scientists to underscore the importance of these files. It is a fundamental matter of discovery, as Humanity Blues correctly points out.

Let’s try an analogy. The prosecution has a photograph, which it enhances via a program like Photoshop to try to prove guilt. They hand the defense a copy of the altered photograph. The defense would like to try its own enhancements to contest the prosecution’s thesis, but the prosecution won’t provide the digital version of the photograph. Is that fair?

RoseMontague said...

One more quote in reference to the knife:

With specific reference to the knife, exhibit 36, showed that was a question of an exhibit that had been analyzed during the 50 samples assigned to the victim, some of which were preceded and others had followed the analysis of the knife. Also stated that each track was analyzed in a single and it was absolutely impossible to mix a track with another. He added that the case in question, concerning the murder of Meredith Kercher, was one of the many cases in that period and were simultaneously processed by the forensic laboratory service, which at that time took care of other tests on other events . Exclude the possibility that the machine used for the analysis of the various traces of it could form secondary deposits from which it was possible to transfer DNA to other tracks. Emphasized in this connection that the car has a safety system to prevent such an eventuality.

I can only conclude that this particular lab has a perfect record. How unusual would this be?

Anonymous said...

Thank you, RoseMontague, for your insight. According to author Candace Dempsey Dr. Stefanoni's lab is uncertified and unaccredited. Thank you, Mr. Halides, for publishing this information. It's an excellent arguing tool. When one encounters the communication skill of the opposition, how can anyone remotely believe Amanda & Raffaele were not railroaded?

Anonymous said...

First of all I are falsifying the facts just like that cruel sociopath Mignini have been doing from the start, just like The Beast with 6 heads have benn in the tabloid media rubbish. It is well known fact that when Forensic scientist Stefanino invited the defense team to attend her Knife DNA testing in the lab in Rome along with the prosecution, THEN AMANDA AND RAFFAEL'S LAWEYRS DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP FOR IT.This is well known incident. they were so confident that nothing will show up in the DNA testing of the knife because the evidence proves Amanda & Raffaele were not even at the crime scene. Thats why in the trial when thery asked for an independent review of the knife and bra DNA, the judge rejected it and said that you can't make me do anything. But they refused to attend it. (cAPS oN) ThIS OBVIOUSLY IS ONE OF MY TACTICS TO SHOW THE WOLRD I CAN TYPE WITH CAPS ON. THERE R DOUBTS IN THE DNA ANALYSIS BY MANY EXPERTS IN THE FIELD. BECAUSE I KNEW THAT CRIMINAL MIGNINI HAD LIED SO MUCH FROM THE VERY BEGININING THAT THE COUT WILL CONVICT HER ON MIGNINI'S UTTER AND PATHOLOGIC FAIRYTALES ABOUT SATANIC CULTS AND STUFF. If u remember Mignini said inthe begining of the ase when she was arrested, i dont know which version the story the public will believe because the MEDIA put out so much my BS. Pal Stefanino even do SAY that meredith's DNA was present on the knife tip, they dont deny their lab is not certified to perform the test and they violated operating procedures for the test instrument, but who cares. Its just that if the knife was cleaned with bleach to remove all traces of blood chemicals the small DNA sample would have been destroyed by the bleach, so if by some chance it is Meredith's DNA that was sampled, then the knife was obvously contaminated, either by accident or deliberately.! Mr, u can;t explain the ever ending lies of the postal police officer BATTISTELLI, I are just hair splitting forensic evidence , which is extremely controversial in this case. But its multifactorial, circumstantial, forensic twist, alibis and behavior of the OJ all taken in totality that prove the guilt or innocence. T o begin with , the police interrogation ,which really is like the litmus paper test for the credibilty and psyche of the Mafia showed the interrogators were lying bullies. The interrogators are lying for each other and are smart, shrewd bastards wh tried to manipulate the interrogation as much as they could. The authorities even ended up in accusing an innocent man although the crime scene investigation was not complete! But in doing this horse and pony show, they got and tangled in their own lies and fell in their own ditch, so they put the blame on Amanda. Have u ever thought that why did they have to work so hard in changing her alibis and versions , when she was truly innocent? She , infact purposely and knowingly coerced her into accusing an black man cause they had hair clutched in her left hand, who lost the hair. Patric his business ruined totally because of the cops helped Mignini showboat. If a person is innocent, then they may just say to the police, well this acquaintee of the cops shuld be questioned too since he to like drugs to deal, then where hu buy them. She just vaguely mentined his name, but the police said that HE KILLED MEREDITH, over and over then, splat wham boom , they bang on her head and say sign here or it is prison you bitch!

Anonymous said...

First of all I are falsifying the facts just like that cruel sociopath Mignini have been doing from the start, just like The Beast with 6 heads have benn in the tabloid media rubbish. It is well known fact that when Forensic scientist Stefanino invited the defense team to attend her Knife DNA testing in the lab in Rome along with the prosecution, THEN AMANDA AND RAFFAEL'S LAWEYRS DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP FOR IT.This is well known incident. they were so confident that nothing will show up in the DNA testing of the knife because the evidence proves Amanda & Raffaele were not even at the crime scene. Thats why in the trial when thery asked for an independent review of the knife and bra DNA, the judge rejected it and said that you can't make me do anything. But they refused to attend it. (cAPS oN) ThIS OBVIOUSLY IS ONE OF MY TACTICS TO SHOW THE WOLRD I CAN TYPE WITH CAPS ON. THERE R DOUBTS IN THE DNA ANALYSIS BY MANY EXPERTS IN THE FIELD. BECAUSE I KNEW THAT CRIMINAL MIGNINI HAD LIED SO MUCH FROM THE VERY BEGININING THAT THE COUT WILL CONVICT HER ON MIGNINI'S UTTER AND PATHOLOGIC FAIRYTALES ABOUT SATANIC CULTS AND STUFF. If u remember Mignini said inthe begining of the ase when she was arrested, i dont know which version the story the public will believe because the MEDIA put out so much my BS. Pal Stefanino even do SAY that meredith's DNA was present on the knife tip, they dont deny their lab is not certified to perform the test and they violated operating procedures for the test instrument, but who cares. Its just that if the knife was cleaned with bleach to remove all traces of blood chemicals the small DNA sample would have been destroyed by the bleach, so if by some chance it is Meredith's DNA that was sampled, then the knife was obvously contaminated, either by accident or deliberately.! Mr, u can;t explain the ever ending lies of the postal police officer BATTISTELLI, I are just hair splitting forensic evidence , which is extremely controversial in this case. But its multifactorial, circumstantial, forensic twist, alibis and behavior of the OJ all taken in totality that prove the guilt or innocence. T o begin with , the police interrogation ,which really is like the litmus paper test for the credibilty and psyche of the Mafia showed the interrogators were lying bullies. The interrogators are lying for each other and are smart, shrewd bastards wh tried to manipulate the interrogation as much as they could. The authorities even ended up in accusing an innocent man although the crime scene investigation was not complete! But in doing this horse and pony show, they got and tangled in their own lies and fell in their own ditch, so they put the blame on Amanda. Have u ever thought that why did they have to work so hard in changing her alibis and versions , when she was truly innocent? She , infact purposely and knowingly coerced her into accusing an black man cause they had hair clutched in her left hand, who lost the hair. Patric his business ruined totally because of the cops helped Mignini showboat. If a person is innocent, then they may just say to the police, well this acquaintee of the cops shuld be questioned too since he to like drugs to deal, then where hu buy them. She just vaguely mentined his name, but the police said that HE KILLED MEREDITH, over and over then, splat wham boom , they bang on her head and say sign here or it is prison you bitch!

RoseMontague said...

Nice rant. I thought it was amusing. I am a bit strange, however.

halides1 said...

Rose,

William C. Thompson, “The Potential for Error in Forensic DNA Testing” (H4T5EOYUZI.pdf) discussed an Australian forensic DNA analyst who told a newspaper that he had doubts about the reliability of his lab’s work.
[quote]
For example, he said that analysts’ own DNA, from blood samples used as analytical controls, often was mixed up with (or found its way into) casework samples, creating false matches: “[Q]uite often my (colleague) would walk down the aisle and say, ‘I’ve just committed another rape on the Gold Coast.’”[62] The analyst said that while many such errors were caught, sample limitations made it impossible to resample or retest in some questionable cases.”
[endquote], p. 30

Here is reference 62:
A. McDonald, “DNA evidence claim clouds convictions,” The Australian, July 8,
2006. (p. 48)

It is difficult to know the exact frequency of contamination because labs do not all agree on what constitutes contamination. However, Stefanoni’s claim of no contamination in seven years strikes me as highly implausible, even if all cleaning and handling protocols had been done to the letter.

Anonymous said...

Nice rant. I thought it was amusing. I am a bit strange, however.

<--This picture and others.

This question is off-topic:

Rose,

How do you make the little pictures you sometimes post here?

Chris,

While you and I do not agree with the end result of this case or the way it was handled, I do respect your posts and how you try to keep an even emotion and mutual respect among those who post here.

Christiana

(I think I will let things cool a bit before asking questions of the topic at hand (as I habitually do). I thought I had accidentally stumbled onto the comment section at Perugia-Shock.)

Humanity Blues said...

I just don't understand it. Give them the freaking files! There's literally nothing to lose if it's so full proof. All it does is feed people's qualified suspicions that the prosecution is completely dishonest. I can understand why people might think they're guilty; I think those people are totally wrong obviously though. But for God's sake, how many which ways can a police force bungle EVERYTHING. You can only blame a PR campaign for so much before it starts to get ridiculous. Guilty or innocent, the police blew it!

It really can't be reasonably disputed except for people who are wearing blinders. I've never seen a case where there were this many reasons to suspect malice on the prosecution. This is how I see it, if they're guilty, and the prosecution is right, they are right for the wrong reasons....because they bungled everything. What more do people want?

Lady from Boston said...

Great job Chris.

You get attacked because the Guilters are afraid of your brilliance. Although I find this whole nightmare that has engulfed the Knox family very distressing, it does bring me great relief when I read your articles.

I don't know that family, but I can recognize an extreme injustice when I see it. Please keep up the great work. You are a wonderful human being.

Lady from Boston

RoseMontague said...

Gee Chris,
You are called a "wonderful human being" and I am called Rose from Witch Planet and worse including today's gem from PMF where Katody and Rose are called "brainwashed cult members". LOL.

It seems The Machine is still whining about people not answering those 18½ Questions asked of everyone that does not follow the party line. I just want people to know that I have answered many of the questions posed to me by The Machine, if not at PMF where I was invited to leave, then here or at JREF.

To Anon at 10:12pm,
There are many special characters and entities you can use at places where HTML tags and codes are used. Two good places for codes are har
and thar

RoseMontague said...

Just to add as an example, in the article both Chris and I quoted from earlier (devilish details) it lists the number of cells in the body as 1014. They should have used a code to get the correct amount of 10¹⁴. When it was copied from whatever program they were using into a HTML format it lost the original meaning, making it look a bit silly.

Rose said...

Oops,
I listed Anon in my reply and it should have been Christiana. If you need any help applying these codes, just send me a PM.

Anonymous said...

Chris,

Are there court transcripts describing this request/motion from the defense concerning the files and the order handed down from the court?

If a mistrial was asked for by the defense in September 2009 (do I have that date correct?) and denied by the court, did the defense then clarify in another request/motion the material they were seeking from the prosecution (and which the defense had not presumably recieved)?

Christiana

billyryan said...

chris i would just like to agree with "the lady from boston"you get attacked by the guilters because they fear your brillance

the ignorance and paronia of the first two guilters to repeat the lies of the prosecution is an accurate measure of how much they fear the truth and your analsis of this case

when this miscariage of justice is reversed,and it will happen,the part played by "chris halides"will be mentioned and respected by all lovers of justice

halides1 said...

Christiana,

The defense asked for a review of the forensics in October, IIRC. It is difficult to see why they would ask for this if they had all of the data. However, I have not seen the actual text of their motion.

halides1 said...

Here is a link to an essay that argues that Amanda Knox’s pretrial imprisonment was unjust.

RoseMontague said...

If a mistrial was asked for by the defense in September 2009 (do I have that date correct?) and denied by the court, did the defense then clarify in another request/motion the material they were seeking from the prosecution (and which the defense had not presumably recieved)?

Christiana


My understanding is the defense made many motions regarding discovery along the way, Chris has a good post about this previously. Just prior to the Summer recess the judge ordered the prosecution to turn over the rest of what they had, resulting in 300 pages of out of order and unnumbered material given to the defense on July 30, 2009. This was of course, already well into the trial and included the famous "Too Low" information as well as information revealing that the non visible revealed by luminol footprints had all been tested for blood with TMB and all found to be negative for blood.

Just before the trial resumed in September the defense filed 2 new motions, one for a mistrial based on the fact they still did not get all the readings and files regarding the DNA tests and one to throw out the knife evidence based on the questionable results they did receive. The judge denied both stating the information they had would be sufficient and ordered the trial to resume. They are contesting this ruling in the appeals.

Anonymous said...

Humanity blue, first of all defense not showing up for the Dna Analysis session has a signifiance. It just casts a doubt to any outsider esp to jury about the validity of the process , becuz the other side wasnt even present. Its very obvious that her defense did this purposely to create doubts in the eveidence, becuz they knew that Amanda and Raffael lies and changing alibis will be the reason to lose this case . thatswhy her own lawyer Ghirga said in the very begining " i dont know which version to believe becuz there are so many out there" Seconly we are not talking about American jurisprudence, this murde happened in italy , not America. So american laws are irrelevant here.BAY THE WAY SATE DEPT SURELY THINKS SHE IS GUILTY AS THEY WERE PRESENT THRU THE TRIAL

Humanity Blues said...

Anon, a few things. First, nothing you said negates my point or the point of the article. Everyone understands how the law works in Italy with respect to the defense being present. However, the simple fact of the matter is that there is no reason to withhold the .fsa files or anything related to the DNA testing to the defense. I repeat, no legitimate reason. Are you seriously arguing that you shouldn't be able to scrutinize the dna evidence just because you weren't there when you can adequately do so without being present as well. Enough.

Second, I only brought up American jurisprudence because you made a factual error about American law, and I was pointing out that you were wrong. That is the only reason it even entered the discussion, because of you.

Moreover, while American laws are irrelevant, universal values of due process and fairness are not. The Perugian court is not immune from this criticism, just as any court in the world is not. I believe there is a boatload worth of arguments to challenge the fairness of the tribunal that tried Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Anonymous said...

Are you seriously arguing that you shouldn't be able to scrutinize the dna evidence just because you weren't there when you can adequately do so without being present as well. Enough.

Hello Humanity Blues,

I think it would have profited the defense if they had sent a representative to the lab to be present during testing. There is so much more that can be gained by in-person viewing and questioning than what can be read on paper.

I do agree that the defense is entitled to all paperwork. I'm just not sure exactly what they did or did not have in their possession and the dates they asked for this paperwork.

Christiana

RoseMontague said...

"Then she compared it with the only two female profiles she had available, the one of Meredith and the one of Amanda."

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html

billyryan said...

since the guilters are so willing to post lies about the defence refusing to be present for the testing of the knife,i will reprint chris mellas post on this subject in perugia shock


THE POLICE CALLED TO SAY THAT THE TESTING WAS STARTING.THIS TESTING TOOK PLACE IN ROME

CARLO WAS IN COURT ON ANOTHER CASE AND LUCIANO WAS IN PERUGIA 2.5 HOURS AWAY AND ALSO IN COURT ON A DIFFERENT CASE

WE ASKED THAT IT BE PROSPONED UNTIL WE COULD GET THERE LATER THAT DAY

THEY SAID NO IT COULD NOT BE PROSPONED TO LATER THAT SAME DAY

THEY THEN APPOINTED SOMEONE ELSE THAT IS IN NO WAY RELATED TO THE CASE TO BE OUR STAND IN THIS PERSON HAD "NO OBJECTIONS"TO THE TEST AND THAT WAS THE END OF IT

WE DID COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS IN COURT BUT JUDGE MASSEI SAID THAT THEY HAD FOLLOWED THE RULES IN APPOINTING A STAND IN AND THAT SOMETHINGS JUST CANT BE RESCHEDULED THEY JUST HAVE TO HAPPEN WHEN THEY HAPPEN

THE LAW IS THAT THE DEFENCE IS SUPPOSED TO BE NOTIFIED 3 HOURS PRIOR TO ANY OFFICIAL FUNCTION THE TESTING IS AN OFFICIAL FUNCTION THEY DID NOT AFFORD US THE 3 HOUR NOTICE

WE DONT HAVE THE MONEY OR TIME TO TAKE EVERY LITTLE BROKEN LAW AND RULE TO THE SUPREME COURT NOR SHOULD WE HAVE TO BUT THAT WOULD REQUIRE A FAIR COURT

SOMETHING WE HAVE NOT YET ENCOUNTERED IN PERUGIA

Issy said...

Could you post the link ? That is very interesting. thanks

billyryan said...

issy the link is

http:perugia-shock.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2010-03-04T23%3A56%3A00-08%3A00

at the top of the page
"around the amanda knox case"
lawsuit extravaganza
go to the comments section on this article by frank sfarzo. there are 736 comments

new newer newest

go to the newest section scroll down until you see the post by amanda's stepdad on february 27 2010 11:10pm
chris made a number of posts in this section on franks blog

at this point the prosecution had nothing that linked amanda to the murder,mignini,who at this point was under indicment for coruption,had released lie after libelous lie about amanda to the press.the pressure and absolute necessacity to get something on amanda was enormous.

with the number of times the prosecution has being found to be lying so far in this case,the fsa files,the electronic data that underlies the dna test results must be made available to the defence

RoseMontague said...

Hot link to direct comment can be found by clicking HERE

Thanks for the heads up billyryan, that is a very interesting comment.

Anonymous said...

Hello billyryan,

The comment from Chris Mellas is interesting. Do you know what day the testing took place (that Chris M. speaks of)? Do you know if the defense was given prior notice (before this day) that the testing would take place? Also, do you know the date the defense argued before the court that they were given insufficient notice that testing would be done?

I would imagine with many different items to be tested for DNA the forensic lab would have had a schedule to follow and hopefully notify the defense of such dates. Do you know if the defense was present for any testing?

Please don't label me. I wouldn't presume to label anyone in this case (other than a strong advocate for either side). I am not a guilter. Like you, I get my information from various sources (some official, some not so official). If I am wrong I will admit it. I ask lots of questions to find an answer. By the way, my name is Christiana.

Christiana

Anonymous said...

Yeah, but "Rose" you came across as a big flake on PMF and you failed to answer the questions directed at you on [i]that[/i] site. You could have linked your responses to the questions posed to you there if you didn't want to type them out, but you didn't.

Nice bald-spot, Chris.

RoseMontague said...

Thanks Anon @ 9:01AM. PMF is a good site with many resources and intelligent posters. I enjoyed my membership there and answered many of the questions that were thrown my way. Unfortunately I was invited to leave before getting to some of those questions.

I am a bit strange and being considered a big flake by you or anyone else does not bother me in the least. BTW, the bbcodes will not work here, just use the HTML equivalent, most of them you can just use the < instead of the [.

I hope you consider joining the discussion here.

RoseMontague said...

In Frank's summary of the Motivations report he gives the judges reasoning regarding the lack of data given to the defense team.

Massei then explains why all genetic results are valid and no contamination could have occurred in the house or in the laboratory. The lack of all registry data is irrelevant, and the defenses didn't have anything to say about the many tests that resulted DNA belonging to Meredith or to Rudi, affirming, in this way, that the lab works in the proper way.

Job Well Done

This is the same kind of twisted logic that uses the fact that the defense missed attending the testing to justify the result. If anyone has the quotes from the Motivations report that covers this, please let me know.

Harry R. Wilkens said...

You are losing your time with all these useless talks. The three are innocent! This case is over! It's up to Obama and Berlusconi to release them instead of letting them rot in jail in order to maintain the "Peace under the Law"...
http://freeamanda.livejournal.com
http://twitter.com/FreeAmandaKnox

RoseMontague said...

Gee Harry,
If any of your regulars want to also waste time and talk, please send them over here.

I am also curious if you have a "Plan B" in place?

http://twitter.com/FreeAmandaKnox said...

Plan B? When there was still the trial, I did everything to inform the Perugians on this case, killing all myths and lies. But my Facebook was deleted 7 times, and the other FOA continued their useless pep-talk in English only.
They are just boring each other with the same old stuff.
The Perugia Witch Trial is over now, it's history. Like so many other trials that took place also in other countries and where innocents are jailed. Now it's up to the politicians to get their respective citizens out.

RoseMontague said...

Harry,
There are appeals that will be heard in just a few months. Have you already given up on those? Much of the discussion going on now is regarding contested issues brought up in the appeals. When I asked you about a Plan B it is only because I believe your hope that the mighty Obama will bring Amanda home is not based in reality. Perhaps you have some evidence that this is not the case?

http://freeamanda.livejournal.com said...

Those useless appeal discussions suck. Even Donald Trump doesn't believe in them. At least he should have donated an air conditioning system for Amanda's jail Capanne. Maybe he will do this for next summer, because the appeal procedure will last till at least 2012 (2010/11 1st appeal, 2011/12 2nd appeal at Cassazione).
The chances are better for the West Seattleite now held in Afghanistan, as well as other US-citizens in Iran, Northern Korea and elsewhere, because they are politically more correct than Amanda in a friendly State like Italy. Just remember the brutal answer Hillary gave in December 2009 when asked about Amanda...
Don't forget that I am in close contact with Italians, lawyers and others, who see the reality and don't appreciate all that American pep-talk.
Presently, in Germany and France, there are TV documentaries about famous crime cases with innocently jailed people. But being innocent doesn't necessarily mean that you get free and indemnity from the State. The System, will always do everything to save face, even by getting rid of those embarrassing persons by "suicide" or other means...

Harry R. Wilkens said...

Moreover, the FOA made the big mistake to neglect the people of Perugia (where all involved persons, including jurors live), and they didn't stop with the Rudy Guede bashing...
You know what happened to me when I talked in Italian to the Perugians - I was fought by all dirty means. But a really well-organized PR campaign in ITALY would have done better.
What is especially tragical is that famous anchor-woman Daria Bignardi finally didn't join our fight, for one reason or another...

As to the books about the Perugia Witch Trial, they put already an end to it and basically agree that Amanda's (and Raffaele's) sentence will be cut in half. Therefore the attempts to add some more years for "slander" - despite the fact that even Patrick Lumumba confirmed the mistreatments by police.

The Amanda PR campaign should have been more friendly to ALL Perugians, including Rudy and Patrick!

RoseMontague said...

Harry,
I agree with you that a really well organized PR campaign in Italy would have helped. Perhaps it is not too late for that even at this stage. Maybe a good plan B for your group? I don't think you will find much sympathy for Rudy here but a case can be made for Patrick, in my opinion.

http//freeamanda.livejournal.com said...

In such cases, immediate action should be taken.
First of all, Amanda didn't have the backing by Bill Gates and "her" government.
Secondly, her confessor Don Saulo Scarabattoli didn't make the necessary so that his brother-in-faith Giuliano Mignini let drop his charges against the kids.
Thirdly, many opportunities were missed to bail Amanda out, like during the Milan trial against the CIA agents, during the G8 summit in nearby L'Aquila (with Gaddafi, who is very influent in Italy), etc.

RoseMontague said...

Thanks Harry,
I was also wondering if you have translated any of the court documents into English and could provide us with some of those?

http://twitter.com/FreeAmandaKnox said...

I didn't even read the court documents in Italian, because it's too boring for an Action Boy like me.
Anyway, this doesn't help Amanda and the others to get out of hell where she is boiling presentloy. Only the Rudy-Guede-Connection or the White-House-Quirinale-Connection can do that.
Or a helicopter landing in the prison yard, like in other cases (unfortunately mostly only for guilty prisoners, because they have more support and means).

RoseMontague said...

Ah,
So,
there is a plan B.

Harry R. Wilkens said...

Among the FOA, there is the tendency to neglect Raffaele Sollecito too. Don't forget that a separate deal is still possible, so that he might be acquitted on the base of his testimony that Amanda left the house during the night...

A very big handicap for Amanda is that her lawyers are from Perugia, a town where the natives stick together and can't allow themselves to vex the neighbours and other people they and their members of family have to deal with. I don't know how this is in Seattle, but in Perugia it's like this since many centuries, before Seattle and the USA even existed...

http://freeamanda.livejournal.com said...

This night of July 28, Europeans were able to see in the French channel M6 a documentary about (40 years ago!) innocently condemned (15 years) and jailed (7 years) Frenchman Roland Agret.
Contrary to Amanda, he SCREAMED his innocence, with hunger-strikes, suicide attempts, spectacular actions and self-mutilation. And with the help of very active friends, active there where the action was: in FRANCE and in FRENCH language!!!
Finally, Roland Agret was "perdoned" by the French president - thus mostly a political solution.
I see no other way out for Amanda, and so do most Europeans.
Maybe we should already try to solicit Sarah Palin or whoever will replace Obama...
But it needs real friends for this, and real money, mucho dinero!

Anonymous said...

Harry,
I agree with you that a really well organized PR campaign in Italy would have helped. Perhaps it is not too late for that even at this stage. Maybe a good plan B for your group? I don't think you will find much sympathy for Rudy here but a case can be made for Patrick, in my opinion.


Rose,

I suppose that is where their efforts should have gone (PR campaign in Italy rather than U.S.), but whether there is a PR campaign for a defense side or prosecution side, it would not be in the best interests of justice to have a case decided either way as a result of a PR campaign.

Christiana

http://twitter.com/FreeAmandaKnox said...

Until now everything has been done in the interests of "Justice". Now something should finally be done in the interest of the 3 innocently jailed!

Rose said...

"I suppose that is where their efforts should have gone (PR campaign in Italy rather than U.S.), but whether there is a PR campaign for a defense side or prosecution side, it would not be in the best interests of justice to have a case decided either way as a result of a PR campaign."

Christiana
I agree that this is the desired goal and is what should happen in a case like this. But it is not a perfect world and justice systems are not perfect regardless of what country we reside in. The reality is that sometimes things like public opinion become very important especially in cases that the public takes a high interest in.

Not only as far as the verdict goes but everything from whether the prosecutor decides on what charges to make or to even pursue a case, a judge that makes decisions regarding motions, evidence, and discovery, a prosecutor worried about public opinion, pressure from politicians worried about voters, a police chief under pressure from such politicians, a forensic investigator under pressure from prosecutors, politicians, and cops and so on down the line including the interrogators and investigators. Who knows what effect some of the negative and outright false information had on this case? Who can now say for certain things may not have gone differently with better press?

Anonymous said...

Rose,

I understand and I sympathize with why it is done but I wouldn't want cases tried by public opinion, as much for the benefit of the innocent as the guilty.

The government has unlimited resources at its disposal to try cases. I guess a PR campaign could help level the playing field for a defendant.

Christiana

http://freeamanda.livejournal.com said...

The fight for Amanda and Raffaele was not aggressive enough. Take for instance the 3 US-hikers held in Iran: demonstrations in front of Iranian diplomatic representations abroad, Hillary in TV on this subject, etc.
Maybe the war against Iran won't even take place before the 3 hikers aren't freed...
And the case of Roland Agret shows us that you need also good friends doing everything for you, and possibly a loving spouse/fiance(e). Amanda is pretty alone and just got her family.

Anonymous said...

The THREE!!! innocently jailed?

Is FOA claiming Rudy is innocent?

I believe AK and RS are innocent, but these tweets are crazy. The Italian justice system made a mistake, and I hope for swift correction.

But Perugia is NOT Iran -- and talking helicopters in the prison yard isn't gonna help matters. The trial went awry; unfortunately, that happens in the U.S. too. I hope FOA settles down and seeks legal resolution diplomatically.

RoseMontague said...

Not everyone that believes Amanda and Raffaele are innocent are part of the group known as FOA. My guess is that this particular Action Boy is not part of the group. He seems to believe that Rudy is innocent as well, which is definately not part of the FOA thinking.

I hope the correction comes soon as well. I don't expect any helicopter rescues are much of a possibility.

Harry R. Wilkens said...

Action Boy is bored by the FOA and their passivity. No action there! You find action in http://twitter.com/FreeAmandaKnox and http://freeamanda.livejournal.com

Action Boy is angry with the Catholic Church that brainwashed Amanda, who got resigned to her fate as an inmate of Capanne jail.

RoseMontague said...

I sense you may have issues with the Catholic Church Harry. Perhaps you should enlist Dan Brown to write a novel about this latest conspiracy.

Debrah said...

What fresh hell is this?

Just a drive-by and haven't really kept up with the current progress of this case.....

......however, from a few comments things seem to be degenerating into the absurd.

Helicopter rescues?

An "action boy" on the scene?

Even though significant efforts have been applied to this case, there is only one thing that can really alter its dynamics: money.

Lastly, I continue to be perplexed by the ineptitude and utter impotence of friends, supporters, and family of Knox.

If this case is such a sham, then why does continued illumination have absolutely no effect?

There must be more to this scenario.

Impotence on both sides conquering.

http://freeamanda.livejournal.com said...

Debrah: You got it! You understood everything! It's the money that's lacking. No Donald Trump around, like promised, no donation by billionnaire Oprah Winfrey. Even Chelsea Clinton could have donated 1 million or so for this good and noble cause.
In case you understand German or Yiddish, watch this talk-show. They are talking about this problem in the case of (innocently?) jailed German TV-anchorman Jörg Kachelmann.
WITHOUT MONEY NO HONEY!!!!
http://www.ardmediathek.de/ard/servlet/content/3517136?documentId=5043700

Debrah said...

Anonymous (10:44 AM)--

Here is the direct link for anyone who can translate.

Interesting, nonetheless.


As a side bar, there is some free advice that we all might wish to take.

Think twice about what you do on your FaceBook account.

Moreover, given what has been revealed lately with regard to how they use your personal information by making it available to other companies, it might be a wise idea to not even have a FaceBook account.

Several people have been encouraging me to open an account, but I've resisted. There are already innumerable ways for people to stay in contact without FaceBook......

.......which opens the door for everyone you've ever met in your entire life to tag onto your page.

I suppose it's a decent vehicle for business contacts, but little else.

FaceBook seems to be descending into the passé and pedestrian dungeon of MySpace.

Some of the things that alleged professionals have revealed on their FaceBook pages---and a few most here would know---would change your opinion of not only their intelligence, but their sanity.

Ha!

Debrah said...

By the way (10:44 AM)--

I'm assuming that you're not an American.

From which part of the globe do you enter the gates of Chris' blog?

http://freeamanda.livejournal.com said...

From Geneva, presently full of Arab princesses and their pimps, but who must leave before the start of Ramadan on August 11.
Facebook deleted my pro-Amanda facebook many times, the last time with more than 2.000 friends.
Twitter deleted me once.
But the only possibility is Twittering for Amanda:
http://twitter.com/FreeAmandaKnox

Debrah said...

(12:32 PM)--

Ah, Switzerland.

Lovely place.

They don't suffer Muslim extremists (or mosques!) gladly.

I admire the Swiss resolve to keep as much of their architecture and culture intact as possible.

One doesn't have to surrender all in the name of "diversity".

Lastly, I went through Ramadan once with a Persian lover.

A very disciplined and cleansing experience.

You can lose so much weight. Too much!

I strongly recommend it for obese Americans!

http://twitter.com/FreeAmandaKnox said...

http://hateobama.com/the-students-voted-for-obama-why-doesnt-he-help-student-amanda-knox

Anonymous said...

Excellent analysis but it seems to be for naught. The "Amanda is guilty" crowd have already made up their minds and no amount of facts or logic will convince them otherwise.

Still, I appreciate your efforts to see this wrong righted. Let us hope and pray that Amanda and Raffaele are vindicated during the appeals process.